MASTERS OF MEDDICC

EPISODE 2 - CLIFF DORSEY


In Episode two of Masters of MEDDICC we met Cliff Dorsey who is currently Chief Revenue Officer of Welcome Software who were formerly known as NewsCred.

Cliff has been leading enterprise sales teams for over 23 years in a career that includes some world class organization's such as PTC, IBM and Medallia.

Before Cliff joined PTC in 1997 that was preceded by a spell in Biotech sales and before the as a Captain in the US Army.

Cliff picked up MEDDIC at PTC and it has been part of his playbook ever since.
Cliff has combined MEDDICC into the Challenger Sales and in particular the Challenger Customer. I feel as though I have come away from this conversation as a measurably better sales leader, and I am sure you will benefit from Cliff's wisdom too.

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Transcript:

SUMMARY:

In this week’s episode we speak to Cliff Dorsey, the Chief Revenue Officer of Welcome software. Cliff shares how his previous military experience resulted in being a perfect foundation for pursuing a future in sales. We also discuss his three fundamentals for sales organization, which characteristics to look for in a champion and how emotional intelligence is not only relevant but vital to a sales team.

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:14) Introduction

(00:57) Backstory on Cliff Dorsey

(03:19) Military training relating to enterprise sales

(06:50) MEDDICC vs. MEDDPICC

(08:59) The different steps of adoption when implementing MEDDPICC

(11:32) Does your playbook stay the same when working with different organizations

(16:13) Differentiating mobilizers and champion characteristics

(22:52) Uncovering what the value of your champion is 

(25:30) Required capabilities

(30:20) Get comfortable with being uncomfortable 

(33:58) Facing challenges with an organization as a seller

(37:20) Multiple economic buyers vs. one economic buyer

(42:18) What advice would your present self tell your past self

KEY POINTS:

  • The three fundamental pillars when it comes to sales organization (09:11)
  • Practices around pipeline generation
  • Value based selling
  • MEDDPICC
  • The importance of knowing whether you have a mobilizer or a champion (16:08)
  • Knowing the different types of mobilizers (20:35)
  • How to help your sales team articulate their required capabilities to an organization (26:50)
  • How to solve possible challenges with an organization as a seller (34:10)

LINKS AND RELATED SOURCES:

Website – https://meddicc.com/

Brent Adamson and Matthew Dixon “The Challenger Sale”

 TRAMNSCRIPT:

ANDY WHYTE: Hey I am Andy Whyte and welcome to Masters of MEDDICC. This is the show that we talk to the best of the best in enterprise sales. In this episode two we talk to Cliff Dorsey the Chief Revenue Officer of Welcome Software. Cliff has been leading sales teams for over 2 3 years and has a ton of wisdom I think you’ll really enjoy hearing and if you do please do not forget to subscribe and leave us a rating.

[00:00:28] Hey Cliff, thank you so much for joining me on Master of  MEDDICC it is an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Looking at your resumes your experience it’s mind blowing like it you know what it was for someone like myself earlier in my career when I look at you know your career it’s kind of one of those things I’ve sort of aspire to. To have you on the show here and he gets to choose is brilliant. Perhaps for the people who are listening and watching if you could introduce yourself tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got is this wonderful world.

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:00:57] Happy to do it in and thanks for having me yes I am and I’m currently a chief revenue officer at NewsCred now has been renamed to Welcome Software has been in sales and sales leader ship for 20 some years.  I am a mechanical engineer by education, Army officer my first profession which we can get into a little bit as it is certainly set a foundation for training and development and discipline which is been part of I think my playbook in successfully brought to light building growth oriented teams. I was very fortunate to be hired early in my career actually my very first technology sale selling job was three years out of the army by parametric technologies corporation. 

[00:01:50] So back in the late 90s this was in this was a very transformative period for me where  the things that I learned the discipline as both a seller and a sales leader did a few different stints with our PTC all total about four years with that with that organization and from there I stayed in sales leader ship places like live person and now with welcome. So I’m very happy to be here you know MEDDPICC is  something that is one of the fundamental components of kind of what what I bring to our sales team and what they execute so  really excited to get into this topic 

ANDY WHYTE: [00:02:45] Thank you the bit about the US Army being in Captain US Army  is fascinating to me. I’ve seen selling UK I know the number of people in in sales that have come through in particular the army actually the British army who have gone on to just have tremendous sales craze where I’ve seen other sales leaders almost try and replicate it. We need to just go and like find people that are leaving the military in a higher them because they make great sales people. What is it do you think that, well first off do you agree and secondly if you do, why?

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:03:18]  Yeah so it’s interesting you say that is it you know at the time with PTC selling engineering cat software that you know athletes, military, and because I was a mechanical engineer I was I was somewhat the ideal profiles for what they were looking for at the time. I think that the combination of being given so much responsibility at a young age as a 22 year old person responsible for the lives of 40 people and tens of millions of dollars worth of equipment, that unusual. It matures pretty quickly as  a leader and then there’s not too many organizations where I was in at a time of peace so if you’re not at war in the army you’re training so you’re in a become an expert in how to train how to develop and how to build a performing teens and I think those methodologies the processes adapt and learn themselves well to sales training. 

ANDY WHYTE: [00:04:25] Right one of the things that sort of famous around the PTC sales team is kind of the level of sort of I don’t know the word for us but sort of enthusiasm would be a nice way of putting it. Some people say aggression in the sales team. How did you find it coming from you know a very structured and disciplined organization which would imagine US Army is into a kind of you know a sales organization for this red blooded state heating sales people.

 CLIFF DORSEY: [00:04:55] Very true however like I found alotta of similarities right. It was hard like the standard were very very high, the expectations were very very high. If you didn’t meet them you weren’t gonna last very long. So you know I remember very clearly in my first sales leader role you know the expectation is it if if you had it because it was very easy to get sent home from training so you would literally go to training and you might get sent home the first day. The person who got sent home got in some trouble but it was the sales leader that was as big risk. So the level of accountability I found while scary you know was was very important to the success of that organization.

ANDY WHYTE: [00:05:48] Right, one of the things I’ve heard from other PTC leaders is that when you when you join PTC as you did as often was  as often is the case with their hiring approach was your first sales role and the PTC sales people said they didn’t realize how lucky they were to land PTC as a first role because since then they’ve never learn as much again since. 

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:06:11] True, its very true I had I had no idea so I was selling I was in medical sales at the time so nothing related to technology and yet the sales leader that the other thing is as a sales leader your job is to get the best people on the team. So I’ll never forget the day that Mark from PTC cold called me and  tracked me down and told me about the opportunity with PTC. I was fortunate that listened. 

ANDY WHYTE: [00:06:44] I love that.  I am looking over your resume and I can see you know you’ve kind of followed that the path of working other companies almost famous for using MEDDPICC or med pic which is it that you use?

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:06:57] I prefer just plain MEDDPICC  It’s not the the decision process, excuse me the paper process is not important I just find it perfectly satisfactory to have it live within decision process and I think it goes up the aesthetic. So I leave it that way.

ANDY WHYTE: [00:07:19] OK, that makes sense and when you went to when you were joining your organization  like let’s take a live person for example looking at your resumes you went there quite early on particularly in relative to the size of the organization when you left. When you went there did they have MEDDPICC did you bring it on what was the situation?

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:07:40] Yeah I would say interestingly it’s more ubiquitous now among technology organizations than it was then, but as you might imagine not only was I there was an ecosystem of people that had also been to PTC. So that was something that we pretty quickly collaborated on an implemented as a standard for the organization. Wasn’t very hard. 

ANDY WHYTE: [00:08:12] Interesting and do you find, I’ve personally implemented MEDDPICC a couple of times to sales organizations that haven’t used it and it’s been, I want to sort of see different stages and I’d love to hear your with your family the same sort of thing where I’ve not met a sales person yet that I’ve talked to who doesn’t know MEDDPICC where I have explained the concept who hasn’t been like yeah that’s good no one no one has ever put up a disagreement or argument against it. So people generally are open minded to take it onboard because It’s very logical and then I want to see different steps of adoption and depends very much on the culture of the sales organization and to a degree the experience of the sellers themselves as well. Do you do you find that there’s a best practice of how you should implement MEDDPICC and what are some of the key learnings’ you would say around that.

 CLIFF DORSEY: [00:09:09] Yes, few things come to mind first of which is in the organizations where it’s a methodology I really have three fundamental pillars of non-negotiables in a sales organization. One of them is best practices and discipline around pipeline generation, PG. One of them is value based selling primarily through things like command at message but the third principal nonnegotiable is MEDDPICC. So I think when I meet with a new seller in the very first week like that is understood. Theres not too much pushback on that one other thing that’s a best practice is it’s not just a sales organizational it’s not just a sales organization methodology so if you were to speak to my CEO if you were to speak to my COO we all talk the same language. 

[00:10:10] So in a forecast review with them like they’re asking as many interesting questions about like what MEDDPICC apps do we have or help me understand the personality of the champion as I am right so the consistency of that language across the executive suite the client services I think is very important. Then lastly if you, to get to your point if you only use it as a somewhat static qualification to tool, kind of a yes or no I think you’re very limit. It requires more training and it requires process to really get it to tell you what you need to do and what’s missing and how you proactively change the facts that you have. To me that’s the most important element of it

ANDY WHYTE: [00:11:03] Yeah I love that, I love the way you explain that. I think that what you mention commands a message there as well from force management and I’d love to know do you, if you were you mentioned that sort of trifecta of pipeline generation that sort of value selling methodology MEDDPICC do you feel, this is a question I really like to ask is, do oyu feel if you make a note as your playbook or your sales motion do you feel that you when you go to a new organization and you know youre brought in as a CRO do you feel that you’re your playbook stays mostly the same regardless of the organization you’re working for? Is there a percentage do you think changes. Yeah I guess how much is the same, it’s fascinating to me.

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:11:52] Yeah, for me it is large I think it stays the same as the type of sales stays the same. So for you know if you were in more of a transactional sale or less you know I tend to do enjoy and stay in organizations where it is more large transformational software sales, its very complex selling so I think the motion and those things are largely the same. If it’s a little less or the emphasis on having a full value framework in those things might be a little less I think it’s still important but yeah by and large I found it these fundamentals these pillars haven’t changed that much. Their application, the emphasis can vary a little bit.

ANDY WHYTE: [00:12:47] I have a theory for and I agree by the way and I have a theory for why that is which is that if you look back to the nucleus of how MEDDPICC was created which was looking at why PTC were winning deals and losing deals and what were the elements of that. It’s basically youre answering the question of why have people even bought or not bought and therefore what MEDDPICC does is sit very nicely over the top as a buying process not necessary or selling process. I think that if you look through time even though it’s been 20-25 years almost 30 years now people still buy the same way you know. Of course we have technology change Perpetual software licenses to Sass and the business models have changed but actually underneath it all the more consensus and more people involved and once with stuff but I think that is actually less about how people buy, I think it’s more about the stakeholders that are involved.

[00:13:43] So what I mean by that is when you’re selling PTC and I don’t mean to know I don’t know it anywhere near as well as you do but it’s you know you were selling a solution that went in like that you know the engineers used it. If you’re selling something like what you know your last  sort od three or four technologies it goes here but has to connect here and it needs to be in the cloud and because its in the cloud it has had the security in this infrastructure login and all of a sudden it’s a much much wider sale with many many more stakeholders and therefore it becomes more of a consensus sale just by the nature of it. So it’s interesting to me to hear you say that you know that your playbook stays the same and I just think that’s because your playbook matches less so what you’re selling more so who you’re selling to.

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:14:28] Yeah that’s very true I mean back to the MEDDPICC l describe it as sales physics. It doesn’t change over time, It tells you the characteristics of what’s happening in your opportunity and  to have the courage to like be honest with yourself about those characteristics but you know it doesn’t change. To your point though I do think that some types of buying have changed certainly consensus buying and some of these large, transformational initiatives that might have, your economic buyer might be three or four people. Which is very challenging so you know what I am with that pushed me to do is really advanced my thinking, specifically around champions and Champion building which is where and probably the challenge of customer is what we got me thinking along those lines. 

[00:15:46] So the research shows the 5.6 key stakeholders involved in each one of these enterprise decisions and what we were struggling a little bit with was finding this unicorn of one person and yeah you want multiple champions but like one entity that possess all these characteristics that we needed and furthermore so many different types of personalities so when you when you look at the concept of a mobilizer which really speaks to you know their ability to sell for you and like start with within the organization greatly depending on the motivations of that person. So concepts like breaking a champion down into what kind of champion are they, what kind of mobilizer  are they, are they teacher are they a go-getter, allows you to better to like speak to their personal wins, might not always be a promotion. 

[00:16:47] If you’re a teacher these people get their recognition through like accomplishments that they’ve done in their ability to like growing an organization. So I think it really will you have to continually mature these approaches based on your sale and based on what people are buying today.

ANDY WHYTE: [00:17:05] That is fascinating, I think that’s the first time I’ve seen someone so eloquently overlay challenger over the top of MEDDPICC particularly,  that the champion you mentioned a moment earlier when you were talking about how you engage with a C-level people in your organization and you know in a forecast environment and you were talking about the personality of a champion. Is that what you’re referring to? So you’re even your CEO would use sort of the language as you put it earlier is so a role to find that your CEO is asking you what kind of personality of a champion did you have an a deal. 

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:17:40] Yeah absolutely so I mean I think in not only the MEDDPICC language then obviously the value-based selling language all being consistent right so I think that helps us move faster and it helps us to have more consistency and how we think about the opportunity. You can say everyone in the organization like selling and like helping moving these opportunities forward. 

ANDY WHYTE: [00:18:05] Yeah, I love that it is do have, with that in mind where this sort of that the idea of the mobilize being of these different person personas if you like do you have when you’re in or when you’re working with your sales team do you, The same way as most people will usually use MEDDPICC and look for a champion and they look for the criteria are you saying you go a layer down and then you start identifying if you do you have the different types immobilizer and if you do you catch that somewhere? how do you how do you manage that?

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:18:39] Yeah so I would say, specifically on the champion aspect at a 101 levels of course youre talking about like what does that mean. You know,  will they sell for you, do they have a personal win, do they have power and influence like some of those key rules. At a 201 level you’re teaching how do we develop these? How do we, what are the characteristics. How to we test them, right.  It’s the 301 level where we start to understand OK their personal wins might be very different based on their personalities and this is where the Challenger types and the mobilizer types in Challenger customer really helped me see a more refined way to look at that. 

[00:19:33] Then you know certainly than applying that and how are you mirror those clients/customers,  how you develop those champion, hoe you built the relationships. It also helps because youre in a situation where you might need to have three or four different contacts and you know we can you know my CEO might be responsible for developing relationship with this person I am responsible for this person it’s a it’s a multi stakeholder in a multi champion development sore of exercise. 

ANDY WHYTE: [00:20:06] Sure, for the folks that are listening/watching that haven’t read the challenger customer book you refer to the mobilizer there, what is it you would say that differentiates a mobilizer over standard champion. Are there sort of three different types but what is there a key thing that straight away as soon as you see or hear you think that could be a potential mobilize.

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:20:33] Yeah The main difference is that you know the mobilizer types they talk about them in the Challenger sale you know are the kind that, because you can pretty easily take the types and dividing these are coaches and these are more applicable for a champion. So they all possess the characteristics of you know having power and influence based on what they’ve done they can sell that all have personal wins theyre just different radiant’s of that and different ways of thinking about it.  You know as you can imagine it is one type of mobilizer is a go-getter which is what you might expect right it is someone that is interested in that promotion, is interested in like growing the organization, which is very different from a teacher. That maybe is happy where they are that’s not really what matters to them so I think it really helps you when you’re developing those personal wins and relationships. 

ANDY WHYTE: [00:21:47] Sure, I think one of the things that I was reading the book that  stood out for me was how it was kind of a you know sometimes the best most thought-provoking methodologies or framework whatever they are the ones that don’t quite fit in your mind of what you were expecting and I think the idea of the mobilizer being almost sort of not necessarily a champion of you, you’re your company, but more so a champion of the idea of the concept of the value that you’re delivering. So they don’t care they don’t care if it’s yours it’s got blue whistle your blue buttons or green buttons or what you call it what your category is called they really care about themselves and their organization which I know is something we talk about a lot in value based selling but when you think about the champion very rarely I find relate the champion to the business. They always think the champion as the one that likes your logo, that likes you, rather than what is that you represent the specific value find.

 CLIFF DORSEY: [00:22:53] Yeah which can be which can be dangerous right arm because if you were champion is not doing the things that are in the best interest absolutely for the company then that’s the problem and can cause you challenges so to me what has to come first is demonstrating the value to that Champion that you can affect the organization in a way that helps them. If you achieve that first then what follows is that why you why your organization. So I think you’re right, converse is also true. How many of our sellers have been tricked by you know that they’re a champion but there’s a champion for doing something for the organization not necessarily us yet they haven’t attached to us, so it is a critical thread you have to maintain. 

ANDY WHYTE: [00:23:55] Yeah and I see a real challenge in competitive sectors of technology there where you find your mobilizer champion you get them excited about the possibility of what you can bring as it is a solution and because of the nature of being agnostic and only interviewed not necessary attaching sales to you but to the value then your competitors comes and goes ‘hi we do that as well you know we got one of those we can do that’

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:24:25] Right and then you’re in the 103 problem when you’re like now talk about price. This is why the value based selling is ao important in terms of that triad because if your team is not expert not only diagnosing problems and pains but within the decision criteria clearly settings require capabilities to favor, and you’re not doing it in a way to trick them, it has to be real.  If you’ve not set your required capabilities such that what we talk about is we don’t want a fair fight right, we want to set these require capabilities such that we have an unfair advantage against the competition and therefore the champion it isn’t like they’re all the same we’re gonna pick them up at the best price for the one we like because it’s really the only one that can accomplish what you’re trying to do.

 ANDY WHYTE: [00:25:19] Right and then when you when you talk about required capabilities you’re referring to command of the message and that element of things which I always thinks works very nicely decision process would you would you say that?

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:25:32] Certainly the decision process in terms of the way that those things were assessed specifically the decision criteria very analogous to the required capabilities in terms of whether those holistic required capabilities that sort of match up to more sort of the financial aspects of decision criteria of the technical decision criteria around like very special you know you’re here today and you’re in this pain you’re trying to get to this future state, what are you missing? What are the specific things you’re missing and then once you get the client to like buy and agree on that then it’s a matter of explaining and selling how you’re uniquely qualified to meet those criteria.

ANDY WHYTE: [00:26:18] I really like that I do really like that one of the challenges I’ve seen overtime is this idea that when you identify the pocket abilities and try and make them stick as you were sort of saying so they become the bread chasers but not necessarily customized but that they become the criteria the customer thinks they have in this case. But one things I often see sellers having trouble with is how to articulate those back to the customer they may have an understanding of agreement you can verbally discuss that. Is there any good tips or good ways you with your sales teams get those required capabilities to kind of be almost agreed in writing.

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:27:07] Yeah its interesting you know I’m a firm believer that you know in these competitive battles it’s all about like who won, who ends up like to finding a decision criteria and what discovery and the solidification of those happens throughout the sales process. A best practice we employees every single call we have we are resetting our front here’s what we understand. Here’s the problem, here are the required capabilities you talk about, let’s verify that. Right so we actually have slides that say what we understand and it’s the required capabilities are in writing there we’re talking about them. It’s not uncommon for a new stakeholder or even the EB hasn’t been involved yet to come in at that point and you really want to cement those so that come decision time those things aren’t lost.

ANDY WHYTE: [00:28:10] Right, I love that and I am what you’re touching on there is something I really am interested in and I think it something certainly in Europe that I think we’re bit shy about it. I know where it’s the same in the US but this idea that for me MEDDPICC and actually Command of the Message in this case value selling. If the customers knew what we were doing they thought oh you asked that question because you’re trying to uncover some more paying or some more metrics. They are trying to figure out who the economic buyer is. If a real interested customer knew what we were doing they would buy into it they would they would not be disappointed they wouldn’t feel like they were trying to be sort of sold to any other way than that is honest and to give them the best possible experience.

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:28:56] 100 %, What I tell my team is that the way we sell is as value adding and differentiating to that customers as the product. We’re the doctors, we’re the ones helping uncover and find the problem and prescribe help them prescribe a solution. We see this every day like you know these clients they may have never tackle this problem before, so it’s a very you know again when you do it right and you do it in a way that’s genuine and if you are truly helping the customer there’s no other way to sell.

ANDY WHYTE: [00:29:32] Yeah but here’s my but what I was you’re almost tired of that. It’s almost like you don’t you know why are you saying you put up a slide your required capabilities, love that and I think you know I think you should call it required capabilities.  I think we should call out that this the criterial making the decision, have I got this right you know. The worst that can happen there to me is that the customers will no actually you missed something or that’s not important to us.

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:30:03] That’s the best thing, that’s a good thing but yeah.

ANDY WHYTE: [00:30:07] But you see what I mean that’s the point, that is the worst thing that happens you find youre wrong so actually youre right it is kind the best thing. You don’t wanna I guess you in an ideal situation you are just right that you don’t want the customer if you were wrong do not tell you you’re wrong so yeah sweet mean.

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:30:25] I get that it’s uncomfortable, I guess have to get a little bit comfortable with being comfortable in this mode. But you have the conviction that like you’re honestly doing what’s best for them and you’re doing what’s best for your champion and getting to the heart and exactly what they need to accomplish what they’re trying to do.

 ANDY WHYTE: [00:30:44] Yeah and you’re touching on something here that really fascinates me and I am pleased we can talk about because im really keen to hear your perspective on it. That is that in sales we so often talk about EQ emotional intelligence and the best definition I’ve ever heard and I wish I could remember who I could say it so I get credit to them the best definition of emotional intelligence is if you have high EQ then you’ll be very well aware of the reactions that your actions have on other peoples emotions. So it doesn’t necessarily mean that if you have high EQ then you make everyone else feel happy emotions it means youre aware of how your emotions have an impact. I think that’s a really an important way of distinguishing it because in selling I think that we feel also often that we have to constantly make our prospective customers feel good you know and for me that’s a real there’s a couple of instances where we have to completely forget about that almost do the complete opposite and one of them is for me is in discovery surface pain and implicate the customer in pain so they need to get proper paint the surface you have to make to come to the customer uncomfortable and like you said you know sometimes when we’re presenting the value sell and how we do that and some of the commitments we have to get the questions you have to ask it is uncomfortable as well and to me it’s a real interesting challenge that sellers will have cause a good sell have high EQ so therefore they’ll be hyper conscious that’s that we making the customer uncomfortable and it’s like it’s almost like how far understanding how far you can push and how negative in this instance you can get it it’s almost like a balance act you know. You go to far and the uncomfortableness isn’t worth the pain you uncover.

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:32:45] Right end and you know the uncomfortableness might have to do with how deep you need to dig into the pain of the situation and having the awareness to know OK this is a full room and you know they are expecting a presentation. How far you can go in the circumstances. It is a little bit tricky, but I find the best sellers are able to push it a little bit and find that that kind of bleeding edge where ultimately the benefits are that you’re helping the organization really see the severity of the problem.

ANDY WHYTE: [00:33:26] Yeah and I think that comes back to what you were saying around the challenge a customer whether the age old you know tell me what’s keeping you awake at night which you know if you were to tell to like immobilizer type of customer that’s a roll-her -eyes. We’re actually looking to do is to tell the customer what’s keeping them awake at night. So I think that is though is sort of almost like a cliché for the same thing I think that really for me is the difference between modern discovery and the old discovery that doesn’t work. I had an instance with a relatively new seller who came to me and said look you know that I thought the customer was super well-qualified you know that they really should love what we do but after first meeting we didn’t get a first meeting and I can’t understand it and so today we have the luxury of watching back the calls because it’s all recorded on Zoom gone course or any of those text. 

[00:34:25] So I could watch it back and what I could instantly see was that it wasn’t discovery in that you know let’s make this two-sided so that as much as I understand what your problems and challenges and goals are, you also bring those to surface and they become very relevant to the conversation. It wasn’t, it was just an interrogation almost.

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:34:51] Right, and I use the word two-sided but basically questions and discovery that add value in both directions so I find a lazy discovery to be like that’s what happens and yeah don’t ask me what keeps me up at night right, show me you’ve done you homework as seller to know what you know what kind of challenge my organization has and ask me some thought-provoking questions that will lead me to believe you might actually be able to help.

ANDY WHYTE: [00:35:26] Right and I think that’s where you can bring metrics to the table, early in opportunities and I think one of the things I’ve seen happen a lot is people think about metrics as something that come in at a slope and you have to stop and get a certain part into the opportunity before you can introduce metrics because of the star, except for looking at the annual report in the outside in your likely to have an idea of metrics but actually I wanna say this. Like two different slopes and it’s the first slope is where you bring in the evidence you’ve had from your other customers and other in similar industries and you start with those and you start unhearing and it falls off because at some point the actual metric specific to that customer can come in. And I think that is for people that are new to MEDDPICC and new to value based selling leading with metrics that you think will be relevant from past experience success you’ve had can be the kind of way of keeping it on track for a good value-based conversation 

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:36:28] 100 % I think the way you described is very similar to how I think about it in particular. I think how you use them and how they are define is dynamic over the course of the sale cycle, to your point upfront it’s all about like what are the proof points that you have like what are the benchmarks that you can discuss right. Then it might be what is a preliminary like order of magnitude impact you think we can have on this organization, all the way down to the very end where and who knows maybe the CFO is the economic buyer and it’s a very hard like are why sort of annlysis. So I do think it’s very dynamic.

ANDY WHYTE: [00:37:15] Yeah that’s interesting. One of the things I hear more and more these days you mention the economic buyer is that the economic buyer is becoming more of a group of people than an individual. I do think there is probably more people that meet the criteria of the economic buyer if you were to break down the things that they have but I’m not sure whether I’m fully convinced yet that they’re still not one overall economic buyer that we really should still be focusing on, and I don’t know maybe there’s others that we should focus on too but i love to hear your thoughts on that.

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:37:54] Yeah I think certainly again back to see the type of solutions where you might have three or four different organizations within the company all putting their money together to accomplish something right. So you know that if you’re selling something it’s a departmental solution you know it’s a little easier to diagnose. I think you’re right in that I think you’re implying you know ultimately there probably is an economic buyer that may sit over those, now the trick is do you really have a realistic shot of how easy is or how realistic is it to both engage like directly interact with that person can become very challenging.

ANDY WHYTE: [00:38:46] Yeah, yes it is a funny one isn’t it. We had a deal I think earlier this year actually where it was it a genuine situation where it was a TV network and the technology we were selling solved a problem free department so it was the product team, the marketing team, and the that that kind of performance marketing team I suppose and they genuinely agreed to split the budget 33 each and we didn’t win that deal. Now it would be very easy to say that we didn’t we didn’t lose the deal to a competitor, it was very much a budget Challenge because of Covid and that’s sort of stuff.

[00:39:35] On that reflection why bring this deal up is that I think if you took Covid out the equation there was still one economic buyer even though there was three in this case according to the definition of senior people and the heads of those different departments but there was one economic and I almost see it because in any one isolation deal just one of those departments the economic buyer over that department would’ve been by far you know qualified enough as an economic buyer, but it’s almost because there was this free it’s almost like we needed to go up the level where we wouldn’t be before. It wasn’t necessarily because the deals because wasn’t a particularly large deal but it was just interesting. 

[00:40:17] You used the word earlier which was dynamic and I think that’s a youre talking about dynamic metrics but I think this is where the economic bar is almost dynamic to the circumstances as well 

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:40:28] Yeah I think you’re right. When we review opportunities like this I always challenge the team to, like when we think we’ve diagnosed who the EB or collection of EB’s are like OK great like who cares about it about above them. Right like don’t stop understanding the organization, the dynamics, because to your point you know maybe you could’ve gotten that deal done under different circumstance is treating those three as EB  but in this circumstance maybe the only way to get that deal done was to appeal to someone that owned a much higher level objective.

 ANDY WHYTE: [00:41:11] Yeah, yeah I agree and the beautiful thing about sales is you’re always learning. That could’ve been a learning that I never got. It’s so interesting that kind of comes back to what you said right at the start which is around being in the military and you know you’re constantly training. I loved when you said that I think that’s kind of the beauty of what we do. There’s something I learned just a couple of weeks ago that made it was almost like a head and hands memos like why have I not been aware of this sooner kind of thing. The beautiful thing about this industry you know I think.

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:41:45] Yeah I think thing is you just you can never settle in and you always have to challenge your thinking, you always have to push yourself on changing your approach that just makes you better.

ANDY WHYTE: [00:42:05] Yeah you got time for one more question and I’m excited to ask you this one which is basically you obviously you know you’ve been in sales leader ship 20 odd years now, you’ve seen a lot you’ve got a lot of great experience. What’s the one thing that you would tell yourself when you were just getting out starting your sales career if you get that opportunity have a time machine or something like that.

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:42:29] Got it so putting myself in a time machine I’m going back in time like what’s the what’s the advice that I would give. I would say that it is buying into the process and then we talked a little bit about the uncomfortableness right so pushing yourself in a mode where you can feel uncomfortable right because you have a support structure there’s very few selling today where there arent people to help you right. So continually pushing yourself, continually trying new things, that’s the only way youre going to get better.

ANDY WHYTE: [00:43:11] I love that I love that a folds so nicely into what I kind of define is the difference between the order taker and the elite seller. And the elite seller is you know it’s kind of a criteria of doing things for the good of the customer for the good of the deal which don’t happen to be necessary what the customer thinks it’s for the good of them and the good of the deal theyre very separate things and I think that that that kind of trusting the process kind of embracing almost like I think those have an, im going to kick myself forgetting who said this in might’ve been a  Mike Logan thing embracing  the suck I think.

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:43:51] That’s an old ranger school adage, but yeah. Basically get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Like you know I talked about those three sales pillars; PG, value selling, and MEDDPICC and what surrounds those are some core like characteristics that you really need to develop as a seller. Discipline, expertise, the ability to work in process and then that last one of courage. The ability to really push yourself and bring those together.

ANDY WHYTE: [00:44:22] I love it. Cliff this has been phenomenal thank you so much for giving up a good hour of your time today. 

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:44:31] Enjoyed doing it and enjoyed speaking with you. 

ANDY WHYTE: [00:44:33] Awesome thank you so so much and yeah I can’t wait to get this one out because I think it’s gonna be a really really good episode. 

CLIFF DORSEY: [00:44:41] Well, thank you so much and yeah we’ll talk soon.

ANDY WHYTE: [00:44:43] Hey so that wraps up episode number two of Masters of MEDDICC. Thank you so much for listening and if liked what he had them please leave a rating and don’t forget to subscribe.

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