Jason Creane on Coachability Pt.2 | Masters of MEDDICC

00:00 Andy Whyte: I'm still smiling at everything you just described — because if you could ever get your customer into that same moment of pain about the prospect of buying your solution, that is what drives urgency. As you said yourself, without me even prompting you — we weren't even talking in a sales context — you were urgently wanting to work for APD in that moment. And the interesting thing — correct me if I'm wrong — but APD wasn't quite the company we know it as today when you joined, was it? It was right in that period before the acquisition. But even then, APD was on everyone's lips as the hottest place to be. So you probably walked in with some swagger — it was likely one of many opportunities you were considering at that point. And how quickly that turned. 00:39 Jason Creane: Well — two things, to be honest. As soon as I met Steve, I didn't look at anything else. I'm so single-minded. Maybe a bit naive. But all I cared about was working for this person. And with each person I then met through the process, that was further validated — the "oh my God" feeling just kept compounding. I didn't need to hear much more. The way Steve made me feel — I understood so deeply what he was doing to me, and I could see what great looked like. I didn't need to see anything else. I just needed to get there as fast as possible. 01:29 Andy Whyte: So you get the job — and it wasn't an easy process. 01:29 Jason Creane: I had to meet Jeremy too, and go through loads more implication of pain in those interviews. 01:29 Andy Whyte: Yeah. So — you've gone from being a top performer at Gartner to what was arguably the hottest talent environment in the industry at that point. You've arrived. And you're probably a bit more humble upon arrival after going through that interview process. 01:54 Jason Creane: Yeah. 01:54 Andy Whyte: And Gartner is famous for having a really good sales school — they teach you the fundamentals really well. What was it like landing at APD and picking up the playbook?01:54 Jason Creane: The word that comes to mind is — it was like a jungle. Everyone was like a silverback. The alpha energy, the meticulousness of how people worked each other out, the sharpness — the way they interacted, the way they talked, the way they qualified and conducted themselves. The attitude that emanated around the whole office was: everyone felt like they were in the greatest show in town. And if anyone didn't know it yet, they were about to find out. That was the attitude. And I walked in as this Gartner rep — very buttoned up, very formal sales-school-trained. Very much the fundamentals. And APD was so much more raw, businesslike, and direct. I'll give you an example. I was chasing Steve for a PowerPoint presentation for a few days, and he still hadn't sent it to me. And I mentioned it to him — something like, "I've been asking for this deck, have you had a chance to get it to me?"03:23 Jason Creane: And he said — and this is why I use the jungle analogy — he said: "Jason, you've just stepped into the jungle. You've got to figure out how to get people to work for you and do things you need, because if you can't do it internally, you're never going to be able to do it with customers. " He said: "You're new blood to me. You're not adding value to me. You're not thinking about champion building — you're just asking for something. You're withdrawing from a relationship we haven't even started building yet. " "That deck took me a year to build in the field. Just handing it to you feels like a big withdrawal of value. You don't know me, and you haven't added any value to me. " It was a very interesting test. 04:04 Andy Whyte: Textbook. That's how they see the world — very binary. Very direct testing. I loved that attitude about them. He was essentially saying: you've got to figure out how to go and earn that deck. And it wasn't that he was being unsympathetic or a bad leader. It was: you're going to have to figure this out, Jason. You've come from an environment where everything was structured and polished. You've now arrived in the jungle and you need to find your way through. 04:31 Jason Creane: Yeah. 04:31 Andy Whyte: And I've heard you talk about this before in terms of champion building in your career — and I really like that context. Because champion building is obviously very close to my heart. But what I love about what you're describing with Rich is that I can relate. I've been that person where I've put my blood, sweat, and tears into building something of value for my territory and my customers — and then here's someone else just asking for it. And in the most raw sense: I want to be number one. So if I give you something that's helping me be number one, you're going to be competition. I want the company to win, but I don't want to be beaten within it. So what's in it for me? That vested interest — that's a clear criterion for a champion. What was the value that Rich was going to get from working with you? And — did you win him over? Did you get the deck?05:54 Jason Creane: I actually did. But I'll be totally honest — I didn't really learn champion building for a long time after that. I felt like I was always rushing to the outcome that was important to me, rather than thinking about humility and depositing value into a relationship first. I was so focused on my ambition and what I needed, that if you have that mindset, you skip all the deposits. It doesn't become your default way of building relationships. So I made a series of bad first impressions on people because of that. And they didn't make it easy — because of the culture and the sharpness, there was no "come on, I'll just forgive you for that. " I wasn't welcomed with open arms. Which was great, because it made me grow. Slowly but surely, as I became more comfortable in myself — more confident in who I was, more openly vulnerable about what I didn't know — I developed more humility and a better ability to engage. I'll give you an example of a different kind of champion building. The way even we started our relationship — I just sent you something I thought would be of interest to you. 08:02 Jason Creane: Something around MEDDIC that I'd written for my team. I thought you might find it interesting. And you were like: "I actually do find that interesting. " It wasn't "here's what I need from you. " That just wasn't my default approach in that exchange. And even if nothing had come of it, that wouldn't have mattered. It was just: here's something I thought you'd value. And that's the right default. 08:37 Andy Whyte: Yeah. And by the way — it was brilliant. And we've talked about it and you've said you're happy for us to share it. Because even if you've only just listened to this episode and never heard any others — I've already dropped about 17 analogies. So even if you're brand new to me, you'll know I love an analogy. And what you sent me is one of the best MEDDIC analogies I've ever heard. Because for me a great analogy isn't just "I can see why that's an analogy" — the best ones are the ones you can build upon and riff with. Where you keep going: "Oh — and that bit fits that bit. " I would absolutely love you to share your analogy with the audience. 09:12 Jason Creane: Well — it's good timing, because it's so connected to what we've been talking about. For context: I've been doing a lot of deal clinics with people as part of coaching. People can drop in with deal problems each week — we call it the doctor's clinic. I've been running it for about a year, and I started noticing a pattern in the deals coming in. It was around champions — specifically that we seemed to be travelling through our sales process without one, and only realising we didn't have a champion when things started to go wrong later in the journey. So I thought: what does this feel like? And I started building the analogy. It's like you've had a great new business meeting — you've driven on the slip road and joined the motorway, which is your sales process, and you're just cruising along. You're looking at your sat nav, it's saying go in this direction — you've got some idea of what's ahead, but you don't know if there's traffic, if there's a speed camera, if there's going to be an issue, if the road narrows. You don't know any of that. You're just trusting the map and driving on, playing music, not really thinking about much. Happy. 10:51 Jason Creane: But then, little by little, you start to see red appearing on the map and the journey starting to slow. And I drew a comparison to the deal: the champion isn't returning my calls as often as I'd like. That meeting we've been trying to get in the diary isn't happening as quickly as I thought it would. The planning for the proof of value seems to be taking longer than expected. And suddenly people are mentioning another vendor — one I thought we had completely sewn up. I'm starting to sweat a bit. The deal is slowing down. Just like on the motorway analogy — it's starting to feel uncomfortable. And why does it feel like that? Because in that deal, you don't have a champion fighting for you. Guiding you, protecting you, warning you, helping you navigate the challenges you can't see — the things happening inside their organisation that you don't know about. So back to the motorway analogy: you're travelling solo. You don't have someone in the passenger seat who's travelled this route before. Someone who'd say: "Hey, just so you know — up ahead the road always narrows and traffic always slows down. What I'd recommend is you get into this lane now, because if you leave it too late you'll end up in the traffic jam. " And you can say: "Thanks — I'll move over now. "12:40 Andy Whyte: And the real-world equivalent? That's the security audit that takes three weeks. But your champion says: "If you get in the back of that queue it'll take three weeks. Let me set up a call with our Head of Security — we can do it live on the call. There are only a few questions they'll need to ask you. " That's what you're talking about. 13:02 Jason Creane: Yeah. 13:02 Andy Whyte: Which is just one of the many things about that analogy that I loved. And there's more — so many others you could pull out. Like: your champion tells you there's a speed camera ahead. Which in the deal means you're going to get a thorough inspection — other people will be brought in, they'll scrutinise how far you've progressed, challenge whether the timing is right. So you need to make sure everything is in order before that happens. Slow down, indicators on, seatbelt fastened, travelling at the right speed. Everything correct and presentable. Because the police are going to be watching, and they're going to inspect your vehicle. In the deal: they're going to look at the why buy, the why now, the comparisons, whether they're ready to go live. They're going to inspect everything. But if you don't know the speed camera is up ahead — because you don't have a champion — you're going to arrive unprepared. Seatbelt not on. Travelling too fast. You've just made a wrong move. And you get pulled over. The deal stops dead. 14:15 Andy Whyte: But then the analogy goes further still. Because even when you plan things perfectly, even with a brilliant champion talking you through the entire decision process, even when you're on top of the paper process — sometimes a ten-out-of-ten surprise still happens. That police car does pull you over because you've got a light out at the back. But here's the good news: your champion knows the police officer. They soften the penalty, smooth it over, make the officer go away. That's why the analogy is so beautiful. 15:00 Jason Creane: And how I finished it with the team was this: if you ever find yourself on the motorway, a few miles in, and you look to your left and there's no one in the passenger seat — pull over. Right now. Pull over and go and pick somebody up. Because you do not want to travel any further without a champion, given all the potential problems ahead on a long journey. Don't travel any further until you have one. 15:38 Andy Whyte: Yes. And it comes back to that simple saying to finish a deep analogy: no champion, no deal. Big champion, big deal. And I think — you'll see it with your clients, I see it doing similar deal clinics — we used to run them on a doctor theme as well. And same thing: if you haven't got a champion, stop the car. You can't go any further. It doesn't necessarily mean you stop the deal entirely — but it should immediately become your absolute top priority. Because if you look at all the classic objections we face — competition doing a better job in the customer's eyes, price, priorities, anything — as experienced salespeople we all have tactics and strategies for handling those objections. But all of those tactics and strategies are virtually useless without a champion. Because without the person who can take that objection and actually put it into action on their side of the organisation — you're just speaking into thin air. Things aren't going to be acted on. That's why champion is so critical. And on that note — I generally ask guests what they think is the most important element of MEDDIC. I've sort of preempted it now — but I'm going to ask you anyway and see what you come up with. 17:17 Jason Creane: So — I could be argued against on this, and I suspect I might be by you. I would say Pain. It might strike you as the wrong answer. But my belief is: if you don't have pain that is absolutely real — if you don't have a genuine "three whys" — a champion will never reveal themselves anyway. If you don't have something that is going to meaningfully matter to your prospective champion, that will genuinely change something in their professional life — born out of an initiative, a real business need — they're not looking for a nice-to-have. They're not looking for a nice demonstration. They're looking for someone to help them overcome something they can't do on their own. Therefore — if champion leads to everything else, pain is the route to revealing the champion. So for that reason, pain must be the thing that matters most above everything else. Which is why I coach people to view themselves, in the early parts of a deal, as detectives. As problem solvers. As consultants figuring out business issues that only they can solve and build a case around. 18:36 Jason Creane: Because if you take someone who's smart and ambitious — a potential champion — and say: "Check this out. I think we can do something here. I think there's something in this initiative, in how we can help, in the potential value, in how it will help you towards your professional win on X, Y, Z in your life. What do you think about working on this together?" — that is what will make that person interested and want to spend time with you. Because you're genuinely adding value. 18:36 Andy Whyte: And I could not agree more. I could not agree more. And there are two things I want to dig into there. One is the pain-versus-champion debate about which is the most important. The other is what you said about not wanting your champion to be your friend. Let's start with the pain thing. I have a theory on this — you've articulated it much better than I do, but I absolutely agree. No pain, no gain. No pain, no champion. And if you link to the next point: if you have a champion without real pain, are they really going to be a champion when you need them? Or are they just someone who likes spending time with your company because you take them to Wimbledon? Which is part of what we do — but obviously shouldn't be the driving factor. My theory on why the most common answer to that question — when I ask it — is champion, is this: generally, the people I ask are looking at deals from the perspective of an opportunity that already exists. When they're reviewing deals on forecast calls, they're saying "that deal hasn't got a champion — that's the most important thing to work on. " And they're right, in that context. 20:30 Andy Whyte: If there's a valid opportunity, champion is the most important thing to work on. But to your point — you don't get that champion without there being real pain. So pain comes first, and therefore is the most important — because without pain you get a faux champion. Or you get lucky and they only figure out later that there's real pain in there somewhere. So yeah — I'm glad somebody finally agrees with me on that point. And it's not that champion isn't critical — of course it is, when you have a real deal. But that first step is pain. Second thing you said — which I really liked and I've heard you talk about before — is about not wanting your champions to be friends. And I think there's a common misconception that our champion needs to really like us as a primary factor. I don't believe that at all. What are your thoughts?21:28 Jason Creane: Yeah. I think this problem is going to be exacerbated in a remote, digital world — where digital channels become the primary mode for how people continue to build champions. Because I've seen the stat that by 2025, 80% of all sales communication will happen in digital channels. So if you don't take that and think: OK, something has to change in how I build relationships — you're missing it. Because that would have been 80% the other way around only a few years ago. So increasingly, if I think about myself as a buyer — the people who add value to me, who become people I champion, are those who feel super smart and who feel like they're working on my behalf. Someone who's taking my input on something and almost extending my capacity. Helping me get marginal gains and lift in my business. Acting like someone who's helping me solve a problem I didn't feel equipped or time-resourced enough to solve on my own. Because I have you, I feel like I've gained someone on my side who can help me do something I didn't think was possible alone. 22:58 Jason Creane: You're adding value. Adding insight. Adding work, adding resource, making the right connections, bringing the right people into the conversation. You're making me feel credible enough to introduce you to my boss. So the access comes easily — sponsorship becomes easy because you've done all that groundwork. All of those things make me appreciate that person. And if that person wasn't my cup of tea personality-wise, that's almost disconnected from all of it. I can find their mannerisms a bit much and I'd still want all of those things delivered — because they're right. As long as they're being authentic and sincere. 23:44 Andy Whyte: Yeah. And I agree. But I'd add one layer on top: in some instances — not all — I think it can actually be a problem to have a champion I'm very friendly with. Because most people have their own friends and social circles outside of work. We're not going to work to find best buddies. We're going there to achieve our goals. And the reason I want a champion is because I want someone who's going to help me towards the goal of winning a customer. For them, there's a vested interest too — whatever they're getting from my solution is going to help them towards their goal as well. So we have this mutual goal. And the problem I see — and I can speak from personal experience early in my career — is that when you have someone you've really gelled with, who you feel could be a good friend, you can't hold them to account when you need to. Because you don't want to upset them. You don't want to push them to do things you need them to do. I can remember one example — and the funny end to this story is that this person actually did go on to become a good friend of mine. But at the time, I had this champion who was pushing back hard on price. Our solution was genuinely five or six times more expensive than the competition. 25:24 Andy Whyte: But we had identified something in our decision criteria that was uniquely ours — a whole use case and business value that our competitors didn't have. So it was another case of: the price disparity exists because it's not an apples-to-apples comparison. But as much as that was an isolated differentiator in the decision criteria — one they'd acknowledged and we had a business case backing up — they kept wanting me to negotiate on price. Which is reasonable — that's customer negotiation. But the flip side was: "You are five times what your competitor is. " And because this was someone I liked — we'd been out for dinner, we'd hit it off as two people with shared interests — I'd been too polite about it. Looking back, I was too patient. I got to the point where I ran out of patience. And I made peace with the idea that I'd lost the deal. But I knew there was only one thing left I could do — which was to call out my champion. Not rudely. But very firmly. I said: "We've been through this. We cannot reduce our price relative to our competitor for all the reasons I've outlined. It's not the same product. You can't even construct a better solution based on the business case you've put together. "26:47 Andy Whyte: "So I think we should either stop this now, or conclude the project — because it's not going to go anywhere. " And I remember the silence. You could hear a pin drop. And I remember thinking: "Right. That's it. I've blown that one. " And then everything changed. He said: "OK. OK. I understand — let's do something on price. And I won't mention the competitor again. " And he came round. We got the deal done. It turned out to be a great customer. He spoke at the annual conference. Case studies. They went on to triple in size as a customer. But I remember at that moment thinking: I've lost this deal. I've ruined the friendship. As it were. But now we're Instagram buddies, we chat every couple of weeks. So it's kind of funny in that context. 27:22 Jason Creane: Well, I think you sum it up beautifully. The lesson I give people when they're worried about having those uncomfortable conversations — because that is the learning in itself — the champion relationships I've seen truly stand the test of time are ones born out of friction. Because if you're not having those moments of tension or friction, or a genuine difference of view, you're not really engaged at the depth that matters. You're not at an emotional layer of conversation — you're at the surface, where everyone is being careful not to say how they really feel. And unless you're accessing that deeper layer, you're not having an honest conversation about whether that person is truly going to fight for you. Whether they believe in the deal. Whether they believe in the metric or the use case. Whether they can defend your point of view. You're not really testing the relationship. 28:51 Jason Creane: Yeah. And going back to the stages of champion building — identify, build, test, use — it's very rare that mediocre salespeople ever get to the test stage. That's the one that requires them to have a genuinely difficult conversation. They skip past it, hoping that the building they've done will hold. But they've never actually validated it. What you did there was: finally call your champion out and test them. And you were fortunate enough to find out they were a real champion — you got the result you hoped for. But what if they weren't? You'd have spent six months building a relationship and only found out at that moment it wasn't there. So we have to encourage testing as early as possible in the process — to get a read on whether that person has the character to truly be a champion. 29:33 Andy Whyte: I love that. Yeah — and someone I admire talks about seeking discomfort. That's exactly what you're describing. Looking for that friction, that conflict. And a great sign of a real champion is when they bring you bad news quickly. That's genuinely what you want to hear. Not just good news — because good news, you should already be aware of. It's the bad news happening behind the scenes, out of your sight, that you need your champion to surface. 30:10 Jason Creane: That's super interesting. Wow. 30:10 Andy Whyte: Jason — I feel like I could continue this conversation for hours. There are so many topics I wanted to get into, but the ones we've actually covered have superseded them tenfold. I think you have such a refreshing view of our wonderful world of sales. So I'm going to ask you now, on the record: I'd love to get you back on the show to dig into more of this. But for now — are you hiring? What kind of talent are you looking for?30:58 Jason Creane: Yes. Actually, I posted about this on LinkedIn earlier this week. Based on our unprecedented success in the strategic accounts part of our business, we're now expanding that practice — which is really good news. So we're hiring. We're looking for people who meet what I'd call the ICE criteria: Intelligence, Coachability, and Experience. People who really want to make a difference. People doing transformational deals in accounts where they feel like they need the right technology, the right market opportunity, and the right coaching and leadership to go and do something special. We now have a practice dedicated to exactly those individuals. 31:38 Andy Whyte: Wow. Those are roles that come around very rarely. And when they do, they're not just vacancies — they exist because you've had to grow the team from success. That's a very positive thing. Anyone listening — find Jason on LinkedIn — that's the best place?31:38 Jason Creane: That's the best place. 31:38 Andy Whyte: Good stuff. Well, thank you so much, Jason. I've really, really enjoyed this conversation. And as we've already agreed — you're coming back so we can get into more of all of this. But yeah, thank you so much. May your champions be strong!32:18 Jason Creane: My pleasure. And I just want to say thank you to you too — I've learned a few things from riffing about champion building. The theme of today's session has really been borne out of finding champions in your job, finding champions in your company, and finding champions in your deals. Thinking about all that people stuff — which, as you say, I didn't know we'd go there in this conversation. But I really enjoyed going deep in that area. 33:00 Andy Whyte: It's a fascinating topic. I'd bet there's a book to be written about unpicking great successes in business, in careers, in sport — achievements that are directly correlated with, or at least linked to, a champion. A parent, a partner, a manager, an inspiring figure who wrote a book about their journey and in doing so became a kind of champion to thousands of people. That's a fascinating topic in itself. 33:00 Jason Creane: Yeah — it's been really fun talking to you about it. Thanks, Andy. 33:00 Andy Whyte: Thank you.